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Coming to a stock market near you..
#1

With a certain degree of incredulity I've watched the political spectacle in Washington. Consider the following:

For most of the world, a government shutdown is very bad news - the result of revolution, invasion or disaster. Even in the middle of its ongoing civil war, the Syrian government has continued to pay its bills and workers' wages. BBC News - US shutdown has other nations confused and concerned

Is a healthcare law, while not perfect, but providing the opportunity for millions, especially those with pre-existing conditions to be ensured causing so much nausea that people are willing to shut down the government and run the risk (in a few weeks or so) of a US default?

That's hard to understand for an outsider like me, especially when the economic recovery is fragile and those who are so opposed to Obamacare are the same that argue that the recovery is so fragile because of uncertainty coming out of Washington.

Since sooner rather than later, this could very well impact the markets and even the economic recovery, I'm trying to make sense of this. I understand that the Tea Party are allergic to 'big government'. Ok, fair enough, no problem with that. However:

  • The US government isn't very big, compared to other developed economies
  • Unlike other recoveries, the government has actually not grown in size (and thereby exercising considerable drag on the economy)
  • In healthcare especially, many other developed economies have a much cheaper system delivering equal or better results whilst being able to insure all citizens

While Obamacare is certainly not perfect and not everybody stands to gain from it (but doesn't free market capitalism also create winners and losers?), there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for panic. Perhaps it hasn't been explained very well, as suggests the following article:



The truth is, Americans love Obamacare


By Michael Hiltzik

6:25 AM PDT, October 1, 2013

Among the many delusions guiding the Republican campaign against the Affordable Care Act, surely the most consistent is the idea that the public detests the law and is clamoring for repeal.

Here's the truth: The American public loves Obamacare, with as many as 88% in favor, according to one survey.

How can that be, when polls regularly show a plurality of respondents with an "unfavorable" view of Obamacare? (In a September Kaiser Family Foundation tracking poll, the difference was 43% unfavorable to 39% favorable.) 

The answer, of course, is that most Americans have no idea what's in the law. In the Kaiser survey, 57% said they didn't have enough information to know how it would affect them. When they're asked how they feel about specific provisions, however, they're almost always thunderously in favor. 

Here are figures from Kaiser's March 2013 poll:

Tax credits for small businesses to buy insurance: 88% in favor.

Closing the Medicare drug benefit doughnut hole: 81% in favor.

Extension of dependent coverage to offspring up to age 26: 76% in favor.

Expanding Medicaid: 71% in favor.

Ban on exclusions for preexisting conditions: 66% in favor.

Employer mandate: 57% in favor. 

If you agree with those provisions, congratulations: You love Obamacare. Yet when respondents are asked how they feel about "Obamacare," they're against it.

The one provision that always polls negatively is the individual mandate. Unfortunately, the mandate is necessary if you're going to outlaw exclusions for preexisting conditions. Without it, you'd bankrupt every health insurer in the country, because people wouldn't enroll until they're sick. 

The only possible conclusion from all this is that the law's opponents have succeeded brilliantly in marketing "Obamacare" as something it's not, and its defenders have failed miserably at communicating what it is.

But that defines the history of Republican-versus-Democratic messaging over the last couple of decades. It's the same stunt that brought us "death panels," or that redefined the estate tax as the "death tax."

The key moment was the 2010 midterm election, when Democrats ran away from their healthcare achievement as if it were poison, leaving it to their GOP opponents to place their own brand on the law; they should have stood up proudly for their handiwork.

The harvest is today's government shutdown, which is predicated on the voters' supposed hatred for a law they actually support.


But here is another, complementary explanation:



Why the Health Care Law Scares the G.O.P.



This spring, the Missouri Chamber of Commerce urged the state Legislature to accept the federal government’s plan to expand Medicaid for the poor and disabled.

The business lobbying group had not suddenly gone rogue. Here is how Daniel P. Mehan, its president, summarized his feelings about President Obama’s health care law: “We don’t like it.”

But the Chamber was cognizant of the plea of its members directly affected by the issue: dozens of Missouri hospitals stood to lose $4.2 billion over six years in federal support for uncompensated care if the state refused to increase the income ceiling for Medicaid eligibility.

Pragmatism suggested accepting the expansion. Washington would pay the extra cost entirely for three years and pick up 90 percent of the bill thereafter.

And it would expand health coverage in the state’s poor, predominantly white rural counties, which voted consistently to put Republican lawmakers into office.

Missouri’s Republican-controlled Legislature — heavy with Tea Party stalwarts — rejected Medicaid’s expansion in the state anyway.

After their vote, a frustrated editorial in The Missourian, a faithfully conservative newspaper in Washington, Mo., asked of the state’s elected Republicans: “Who Do They Represent?”

Today, the same forces that blocked the expansion of Medicaid in Missouri are going all out in Washington in a bid to undo all of the Affordable Care Act. Bowing to the vehemence of its Tea Party faction, the House G.O.P. forced a government shutdown when Senate Democrats refused to delay or defund the president’s health overhaul.

House Republicans are threatening even further damage if they don’t get their way, possibly unleashing financial chaos if they manage to force the United States into its first default ever on the government’s debt.

Republicans’ efforts raise the same perplexing question posed by the Missourian: What drives Tea Party Republicans and their financial backers? What calculation persuades them that repealing the health care law is worth the risk? Indeed, whose interests do they represent?

Nearly 6 in 10 Americans disapprove of trying to stop the law by cutting its financing. Even among those who don’t like the law, less than half want their representatives in Congress to try to make it fail.

It is tempting to discard the Tea Party activists driving the Republican Party as crazy — as some commentators have — motivated by fear and willing to believe that default won’t cause much harm and might even act as a purgative to free the economy of a bloated government.

“They listen to nobody but themselves,” the Harvard political scientist Theda Skocpol told me. “They are convinced of their rectitude and convinced that they alone are qualified to save America from the dire threat of Obama and his polices. They have worked themselves into a dangerous place.”

Their relationship with reality can take peculiar turns. Reflexive opponents of “government,” they can exhibit little sense of what the government actually does.

And yet the argument that half the Republican Party has simply lost its mind has to be an unsatisfactory answer, especially considering the sophistication of some of the deep-pocketed backers of the Tea Party insurgency.

There is a plausible alternative to irrationality. Flawed though it may turn out to be, Obamacare, as the Affordable Care Act is popularly known, could fundamentally change the relationship between working Americans and their government. This could pose an existential threat to the small-government credo that has defined the G.O.P. for four decades.

The law is imperfect. It has dozens of complicated, interlocking parts. Half of Americans say they don’t understand how it will affect them and their family. Still, the law has many provisions that are likely to improve life for millions of Americans, including a big portion of what we know as the working middle class.

Almost two-thirds of uninsured Americans have a full-time job, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. A further 16 percent are employed part time.

The Department of Health and Human Services recently estimated that nearly six in 10 uninsured Americans could qualify for health coverage in the insurance market for less than $100 per person per month.

According to an analysis by the Urban Institute, 28 million Americans would gain health insurance under Obamacare. Of these, eight million earn more than twice the poverty level of $47,100 for a family of four. A majority of those would get a subsidy to buy a plan.

As it turns out, the core Tea Party demographic — working white men between the ages of 45 and 64 — would do fairly well under the law.

Take Missouri. It has about 800,000 uninsured. Almost half of them would have been eligible for expanded Medicaid benefits, had the Legislature not rejected them. Many of the rest — including families of four making up to $94,000 — will be eligible to get subsidized health insurance.

In St. Louis, for instance, a family of four making $50,000 a year will be able to buy a middle-of-the-road “silver” health plan for $282 a month and a bottom-end “bronze” plan for $32. Even Medicare recipients will get a benefit worth a few hundred dollars a year.

This could justify conservative Republicans’ greatest fears.

In 1994, when President Bill Clinton took an earlier stab at a health care overhaul, the conservative thinker William Kristol published a manifesto about why Republicans had to stop it.

Passage of the Clinton health plan in any form would be disastrous,” Mr. Kristol wrote, italicizing for emphasis. “It would guarantee an unprecedented federal intrusion into the American economy. Its success would signal the rebirth of centralized welfare-state policy at the moment that such policy is being perceived as a failure in other areas.”

Two decades after Mr. Clinton’s ultimately failed attempt, Obamacare poses the same sort of threat.

Even Americans who say they dislike the law actually like many of its components. Nearly three-quarters approve of giving financial help to poor and moderate-income Americans to buy health insurance. Two-thirds approve of barring insurance companies from denying coverage because of somebody’s medical history. Three-quarters favor letting children stay on their parents’ insurance until they are 26.

Until now, social welfare programs in the United States have exhibited a “big hole,” Professor Skocpol said, consisting of nonpoor working-age Americans and their children. Obamacare closes a big chunk of it.

“The main beneficiaries tend to have lower wages, employed in smaller businesses that are not providing health insurance,” she said. “They are not elderly. They are also not the poorest.”

And they might be grateful to Democrats for the benefit.

To conservative Republicans, losing a large slice of the middle class to the ranks of the Democratic Party could justify extreme measures.


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#2
Admin,

Here is one of the main reasons for what is happening today. Invest 10 minutes and see if this makes sense to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs
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#3

Lib, I'm not convinced by that:

  • Obamacare isn't socialized medicine. The NHS in Britain is, which as disadvantages (waiting lists) and advantages (everybody is covered and it cost half what the American system costs)
  • Rather than looking at labels, I like to look at what works:

From the OECD (via the WSJ).





 


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#4
Admin -

The problem here is pretty simple to describe. The political spectrum is being severed and the two sides driven apart by an increasingly polarized media. Thus my reality and that of my friends on the right become very different because our media experiences are so different.

Sure, I could point to that red line above on US health care spending from OECD but if I' have insurance and am being told in the media I follow the US has the greatest health care system in the world (and allowing the free market to work its magic will make it even better) then I won't care much who OECD is or what they say. A politician with a very conservative district which gets its news from FOX and opinion from Rush IS more likely to believe all of America hates ObamaCare. Doesn't explain the millions of visits to the government's ACA website the past two days, but that doesn't matter. There aren't many radio stations in red states that aren't country music, religious or conservative talk other than maybe ESPN.

I've often wondered just how different my Google inquiry results are from those received by people on the other side of the political spectrum. "Custom" results just might tell each of us what we want to hear rather than inform us of any truth there might exist in the world. Not good for democracy.

I won't even go into the value placed today on intellectual honesty. All you have to do is watch commercials on TV. We have long been bombarded with fantasy claims by soap and deoderant ads. Half truths, allegations, innuendo and outright lies have become a cultural norm in advertising. How else can people be asked which they like more, Obama Care or the Affordable Care Act and many state a strong preference for the ACA? Just how long do we have to hear about imagined death panels? Just how can a Congressman state on TV ObamaCare is among the worst laws in the entire history of mankind. The history of mankind? And he seemed serious! Makes a guy want to cry.
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#5

Well, yes Art, but this isn't how I try to look at the world. Realizing that both markets and the public sector have strengths and weaknesses, I just try to figure out at what works. For instance, I admire the US for it's unparalleled innovation system, simply because it's better than most (if not all) others, by outcome. However, healthcare (which is rife with information asymmetries and therefore has notable market failures) doesn't seem a prima facie candidate for free markets.

And on the other hand, looking in the rest of the world, there are quite a few examples where significant government involvment in healthcare doesn't seem to lead to disaster. Here is Sweden:



What Sweden Can Tell Us About Obamacare



LAST month, for the 37th time, the House of Representatives voted to repeal Obamacare, with many Republicans saying that its call for greater government involvement in the health care system spells doom. Yet most other industrial countries have health care systems with far more government involvement than we are ever likely to see under Obamacare. What does their experience tell us about Republican fears?

While in Sweden this month as a visiting scholar, I’ve asked several Swedish health economists to share their thoughts about that question. They have spent their lives under a system in which most health care providers work directly for the government. Like economists in most other countries, they tend to be skeptical of large bureaucracies. So if extensive government involvement in health care is indeed a recipe for doom, they should have clear evidence of that by now.

Yet none of them voiced the kinds of complaints about recalcitrant bureaucrats and runaway health costs that invariably surface in similar conversations with American colleagues. Little wonder. The Swedish system performs superbly, and my Swedish colleagues cited evidence of that fact with obvious pride.

The United States spends more than $8,000 a person per year on health care, well more than twice what Sweden spends. Yet health outcomes are far better in Sweden along virtually every dimension. Its infant mortality rate, for example, was recently less than half that of the United States. And males aged 15 to 60 are almost twice as likely to die in any given year in the United States than in Sweden.

In fairness, those differences result partly from lifestyle. In Sweden, workers are more likely to commute by bicycle than by car, for example, and obesity is far less common. Absolute poverty and income inequality — both associated with adverse health outcomes — are also lower.

But when illness strikes, the Swedish health care system responds efficiently. Managers have exploited economies of scale by consolidating services into fewer but larger hospitals. The American system has also gone through consolidation, but, by contrast, boutique hospitals are also more common here — partly in response to demands from patients with very high-cost health plans. In large hospitals, CT scanners and other expensive diagnostic and treatment machines are in nearly constant use, versus only a few hours of weekly use in some small ones.

Larger hospitals with heavier patient flows also enable their staff to hone their skills through specialization and experience. If you are getting a knee replacement or coronary bypass surgery, you want teams that do scores of such procedures each month.

Doctors in the two countries also face different financial incentives. In the United States, under the fee-for-service model, they can bolster their incomes, often substantially, by prescribing additional tests and procedures. Most Swedish doctors, as salaried employees, have no comparable incentive.

Another important difference is that, unlike many American health insurance providers, the government groups that manage Swedish health care are nonprofit entities. Because their charge is to provide quality care for all citizens, they don’t face the same incentive to withhold care that for-profit organizations do. That more hip-replacement operations are performed per capita in Sweden than in most other countries is almost certainly a reflection of the generous care options rather than of any inherent deficiency in Swedes’ hip joints.

The Swedes also provide drugs and other treatments only when evidence establishes their effectiveness. People can spend privately on unproven treatments, but the government refuses to impose their cost on taxpayers.

IS there a catch? When I asked my Swedish hosts to describe any downsides to their system, several mentioned the waiting times for certain nonemergency services. One told me that whereas in the United States a wealthy or well-insured patient might schedule a hip replacement with only a week’s notice, in Sweden the wait could be as long as three months. He described such waits as a design feature, noting that they allowed facilities to be used at consistently high capacity, and thus more efficiently.

Obamacare also contains many evidence-based provisions for medication and other treatments. But at least in its initial stages, it will not be able to match the cost savings achieved in Sweden.

That’s because the legislation’s design was heavily constrained from the outset. Surveys showed that most Americans were satisfied with the existing health plans provided by their employers, so any new system that required people to abandon them would have been a political non-starter. As I discussed in an earlier column, however, such plans are an extremely inefficient way to pay for health care. They arose as an unfortunate historical accident during World War II, when employers used them to sidestep the wage controls that had resulted in extreme labor shortages.

Employer health plans have been disappearing steadily, and may one day be gone entirely. The encouraging news is that the Affordable Care Act was intended to foster the evolution of a new system that can capture many of the gains currently enjoyed by countries like Sweden.

For that to happen, however, Congressional critics must abandon their futile efforts to repeal Obamacare and focus instead on improving it. Their core premise — that greater government involvement in health care provision spells disaster — lacks support in the wealth of evidence from around the world that bears on it.

The truth appears closer to the reverse: Because of pervasive market failures in private health care markets, this may be the sector that benefits most from collective action.

Robert H. Frank is an economics professor at the Johnson Graduate School of Management at Cornell University.


This doesn't really strike me as something to shut down the government for, to be honest.

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#6

[quote='admin' pid='29461' dateline='1380750220']

Lib, I'm not convinced by that:

  • Obamacare isn't socialized medicine. The NHS in Britain is, which as disadvantages (waiting lists) and advantages (everybody is covered and it cost half what the American system costs)
  • Rather than looking at labels, I like to look at what works:

From the OECD (via the WSJ).





 


Admin,

I wasn't trying to convince you, I am just merely pointing out why a fair amount of people are resisting. While I do not wish to kick the political football around I can tell you this with some certainty. The major reason for the situation we are currently in lives one simple truth. One side of the political spectrum made this the law of the land without any input from the other side. Regardless of the law that has been passed, when this happens the other side is going to push back. Negociate on the front end or negociate on the back end, either way both sides need to respect the other and not force feed something to what amounts to approx half of the population of the USA. I don't buy the usual Fox/Limbaugh rant, that's just standard strawman material. The truth lies with this, political parties need to work together taking input from the minority party and giving them some skin in the game. That is not what happened with O-care.

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#7
Well, it's funny that you mention that Lib, as I am reading Jeffrey Sachs' (the economist) book (The Price of Civilization) and he rants against this as well, arguing that it didn't take on the pharmaceutical and medical insurance industries, whose lobbies had a field day with it and that the concessions made to them (like the disappearance of the public option, despite polls showing there was a fairly large majority in favor of that) were never made public.

I'm more interested in the economics of this, but I realize these don't work in a vacuüm and when emotions start to threaten to take world markets down I take notice
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#8

'Libtardius Maximus' pid='29466' datel Wrote:

Admin,

I wasn't trying to convince you, I am just merely pointing out why a fair amount of people are resisting. While I do not wish to kick the political football around I can tell you this with some certainty. The major reason for the situation we are currently in lives one simple truth. One side of the political spectrum made this the law of the land without any input from the other side. Regardless of the law that has been passed, when this happens the other side is going to push back. Negociate on the front end or negociate on the back end, either way both sides need to respect the other and not force feed something to what amounts to approx half of the population of the USA. I don't buy the usual Fox/Limbaugh rant, that's just standard strawman material. The truth lies with this, political parties need to work together taking input from the minority party and giving them some skin in the game. That is not what happened with O-care.

Lib, I don't know whether this has or hasn't been forced on half the US population against their will. However, the core of Obamacare actually originated in.. the Heritage Foundation, and it was then grosso modo implemented in Massachusets by a former GOP presidential candidate.

Obamacare is loosely based on a health reform in Massachusetts, signed into law in 2006 by the state’s then governor, Mitt Romney [The Economist]

The bitterest objection of the critics seems to be with the individual mandate, but read Forbes on that, as it was exactly that element that originated at Heritage. An individual mandate is of course unavoidable once you'll oblige insurance companies to accept people with pre-existing conditions.

Here is the Economist again:

One of the biggest problems with America’s system is that insurers have long charged punishing rates to the sick, or refused to cover them at all. Beginning in January, this practice will be banned. Since insurers would soon go bankrupt if they sold only cheap plans to ailing patients needing expensive treatment, Obamacare pushes the young and fit to buy coverage, too. An “individual mandate” will require all Americans to have insurance or pay a penalty. This will give insurers revenue from cheap, healthy patients to offset the cost of insuring sick ones.

The whole idea of insurance is:

  1. Pool risk to reduce the size of premiums (see here for an excellent explanation of the economics of that)
  2. A redistribution from the low to the high risk bearers.

Have you any idea how this looks abroad? Here is The Economist (hardly a left-wing rag) again:

The furore over Obamacare is baffling to the rest of the world. Most rich countries have universal coverage; developing countries are trying to introduce it. Yet in America, home to the world’s biggest health system, the fight over insurance is vicious enough to bring government to a halt.

In the world’s biggest economy nearly 50m people, or one in seven, are uninsured. America spends 18% of GDP on health care. The people of Britain, Norway and Sweden, to name a few, spend half as much but live longer.

I really don't want to have a go at you but I'm simply one of those baffled foreigners, and increasingly concerned as people seem to be playing poker with the world economy for a cause which I have a hard time understanding. Usually, even when I disagree, I can at least see some merit or logic in opposite views, but I have a hard time understanding the attempts at outright sabotage of a law, however imperfect, that has been passed and upheld by the supreme court and that has at its main objective to insure people who have a hard time insuring themselves under the present system, let alone hold the world economy to ransom.

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#9

'admin' pid='29590' datel Wrote:

'Libtardius Maximus' pid='29466' datel Wrote:

Admin,

I wasn't trying to convince you, I am just merely pointing out why a fair amount of people are resisting. While I do not wish to kick the political football around I can tell you this with some certainty. The major reason for the situation we are currently in lives one simple truth. One side of the political spectrum made this the law of the land without any input from the other side. Regardless of the law that has been passed, when this happens the other side is going to push back. Negociate on the front end or negociate on the back end, either way both sides need to respect the other and not force feed something to what amounts to approx half of the population of the USA. I don't buy the usual Fox/Limbaugh rant, that's just standard strawman material. The truth lies with this, political parties need to work together taking input from the minority party and giving them some skin in the game. That is not what happened with O-care.

Lib, I don't know whether this has or hasn't been forced on half the US population against their will. However, the core of Obamacare actually originated in.. the Heritage Foundation, and it was then grosso modo implemented in Massachusets by a former GOP presidential candidate.

Obamacare is loosely based on a health reform in Massachusetts, signed into law in 2006 by the state’s then governor, Mitt Romney [The Economist]

The bitterest objection of the critics seems to be with the individual mandate, but read Forbes on that, as it was exactly that element that originated at Heritage. An individual mandate is of course unavoidable once you'll oblige insurance companies to accept people with pre-existing conditions.

Here is the Economist again:

One of the biggest problems with America’s system is that insurers have long charged punishing rates to the sick, or refused to cover them at all. Beginning in January, this practice will be banned. Since insurers would soon go bankrupt if they sold only cheap plans to ailing patients needing expensive treatment, Obamacare pushes the young and fit to buy coverage, too. An “individual mandate” will require all Americans to have insurance or pay a penalty. This will give insurers revenue from cheap, healthy patients to offset the cost of insuring sick ones.

The whole idea of insurance is:

  1. Pool risk to reduce the size of premiums (see here for an excellent explanation of the economics of that)
  2. A redistribution from the low to the high risk bearers.

Have you any idea how this looks abroad? Here is The Economist (hardly a left-wing rag) again:

The furore over Obamacare is baffling to the rest of the world. Most rich countries have universal coverage; developing countries are trying to introduce it. Yet in America, home to the world’s biggest health system, the fight over insurance is vicious enough to bring government to a halt.

In the world’s biggest economy nearly 50m people, or one in seven, are uninsured. America spends 18% of GDP on health care. The people of Britain, Norway and Sweden, to name a few, spend half as much but live longer.

I really don't want to have a go at you but I'm simply one of those baffled foreigners, and increasingly concerned as people seem to be playing poker with the world economy for a cause which I have a hard time understanding. Usually, even when I disagree, I can at least see some merit or logic in opposite views, but I have a hard time understanding the attempts at outright sabotage of a law, however imperfect, that has been passed and upheld by the supreme court and that has at its main objective to insure people who have a hard time insuring themselves under the present system, let alone hold the world economy to ransom.

Okay, one last time. I understand where you are coming from, settled law and all. So you and anyone else reading this understands, I am not a partisan, I am what pollsters call an independent which in my view allows me to be a bit more objective than others. Never mind my name on this site, there is a long story behind it.  What you are describing here is reasonable, especially since you lack an understanding of American politics. Let's pretend for a moment that this healthcare  topic is a tree and it is sick. You surmise it must be a disease in the branches because there is no leaf growth. I am directing you to the root of the tree.

In the modern history of the USA, no social legislation has been passed  in a straight party vote. This includes Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, heck even civil rights. Both sides worked together to craft the legislation. Win-win. Yet in this instance, healthcare, which I might add encompasses fully one-sixth of the US economy was voted into law without input from the other political party, or...one half of the US populace roughly. This legislation will effect every American at some point in their life and half didn't get a say in it.

This is setting a dangerous precident imo. I am not against this plan, it is way past time for something like this, but the manner in which it has happened is suspect at best. Imagine for one second what the other side of the political spectrum will do when they become the majority. It's a nighmare scenario turning American politics into a zero sum game.

I could go on but I won't, I hope you find this helpful. I disagree with your position on playing poker, you are focusing on the cards instead of the dealer dealing from the bottom of the deck. It's really quite simple, give the other side some skin in the game.

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#10
When legislation is germinated in the early 1900s (T. Roosevelt) and has its basic structure introduced in the 1970s by conservatives (R. Nixon, Heritage) and involves two industries as large as insurance and medical care in its formulation it amazes me that anyone can claim this was a single party effort. Granted, no Republicans may have voted for it, but I would suspect that has everything to do with the current hyper polarization of party politics and little to do with the essence and nature of the legislation.

There is little truth today that needs to underly any talking point for that talking point to be endlessly aired in the media.
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